Cheating Scandal Discussion

Topic: Cheating Scandal Discussion (Read 3443 times) previous topic - next topic

Cheating Scandal Discussion

January 22, 2020, 01:21:16 PM

Good grief, does this suck for baseball, or what?

How many here believe the Astros and BoSox (as much as I like to hate them both) are the only teams that did this? I think the 'stros were just stupid enough to get caught. I mean, has anyone seen the JomBoy video of the Gattis AB against Danny Farquhar? Farquhar's reaction when he figures out what's happening would be classic if it wasn't also a little suspicious (in that he didn't blow the whistle right then - as if it was a ho-hum experience like he'd seen it before). It's ridiculous other opposing pitchers (or entire teams) didn't catch on every single game, especially with the longer ABs. Unless of course, if they did, and didn't say anything because they're using tech to steal signs, too.

Anyway, I'm tired of talking about this cheating BS mostly with people who don't follow baseball as closely as I do. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

For me: No, for all that is good and holy, don't vacate the titles just to give them to the Dodgers. The Dodger organization and most fans wouldn't want the titles like that. But vacate the titles for Houston and Boston (once the investigation inevitably proves they cheated) on the basis of pure principle? Heck to the yes. They didn't deserve them.

How does a player rejoice with his teammates - like both teams did - after each WS was over, knowing you cheated in such a blatantly unfair way? Watch those celebrations again. It makes my head boil to see these guys act like they earned it. I never hit above .300 at the college level, but at 52 years old, I'm pretty sure even I could pull an off-speed pitch down the line if I knew it was coming. I have absolutely ZERO respect for every single person in those organizations, as they ALL knew what was happening.

So let me hear it. What are your thoughts?

PS, as I was starting to write this, I saw an article posted this morning that Manfred gave IMMUNITY to the all Astros and Red Sox players just as the investigation(s) was starting, in exchange for honest testimony. Wow. Did that also include making player statements classified so that fans can't see them? Will we ever get to see what they players had to say?

Re: Cheating Scandal Discussion

Reply #1 – January 22, 2020, 03:19:56 PM

I listen to MLB radio most days on the car ride to and from work (about an hour) and in the office if something interesting is happening. So I've been following it closely and I would guess most of us here have been too. I read last week that Logan Morrison made similar accusations against the Red Sox, Dodgers and Yankees and his accusations go all the way back to 2014.
https://sodomojo.com/2020/01/13/former-mariners-first-baseman-logan-morrison-claims-astros-cheating-goes-back-2014/

Frankly, I think it has been going on longer and has been more widespread than we've been led to believe. I could hear the bang on one of those videos. I don't think the Astros or Red Sox have any credibility in anything they say. But I also can't believe they're the only two teams doing it. What does Morrison have to gain my making it up. That's why you can't start vacating titles and such.

Does anyone remember the Chris Sale accusation about the Tigers using binoculars in the OF to steal signs. As a Tiger's fan I laughed at it then but now I wonder if there was some validity to what Sale was saying:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8F8kDaL4y0c

My position is that on-field sign stealing is perfectly okay but using electronics is wrong. They have to find a way to police the electronics or they just have to let it all be legal and leave it up to the pitchers and catchers to be smarter in how they do things.

The more interesting discussion is how does this impact players going forward. Did Astro player's stats improve by 1%, 5%, 10%? Who knows? Is there risk in holding these guys on your fantasy team this season?

Re: Cheating Scandal Discussion

Reply #2 – January 22, 2020, 08:34:13 PM

Oh man, when I saw the headline on this thread I got excited. I figured someone had cracked the case on the Boos 2019 championship. But then I realized you were just talking about the Astros and Sox. Boo...

In all seriousness - I personally went through 3 cycles of grief on this in very rapid succession. Disbelief that they took cheating that far, of course anger, and then meh. Once I recovered from the shock of it, is it really any different than what’s been going on in other sports? Spygate ring a bell?

I personally think in the next 2-3 there will be a scandal where some NFL team hacked into the opposing team’s QB helmet communications. I’m shocked it hasn’t happened already.

Baseball likes to think of itself as greater than that. But in realty literally every pitch thrown has some amount of foreign substance on it. It’s just that no one complains about it as their guys are doing it too. Unless someone takes it to an idiotic level that they have to say something (see Michael Pineda). I believe the same holds true for sign stealing. Everyone is probably doing it. The Astros were just too blatant about it.

Here’s a solution - and yes I’m going to violate like 372 baseball codes in a two sentences. But why does the catcher even need to call the pitch anyway? Why can’t the pitcher decide on his own what he wants to throw? Wouldn't that completely eliminate the issue?

Let each member of the battery do their job - pitchers throw the ball and the catchers well, catch it. Maybe the umpires would call balls/strikes better too if the catchers didn’t have such an advantage with pitch framing. Downside? Passed balls would probably go up significantly. But again, catchers have one job - catch the ball.

I’m ready for the argument against. There’s an art form to calling pitches, understanding where the defenders are lined up, and reading where the batters feet are. Plus Nuke Laloosh is still be in A ball without Kevin Costner teaching him how to take care of his shower shoes and to not throw punches with his throwing hand. I get all that. But in my opinion I’ll gladly give all that up to completely eliminate the batter knowing in advance if you are throwing a 99 MPH fastball or an 85 MPH changeup.

Re: Cheating Scandal Discussion

Reply #3 – January 22, 2020, 08:40:18 PM

Quote from: scubadan – on January 22, 2020, 03:19:56 PM

The more interesting discussion is how does this impact players going forward. Did Astro player's stats improve by 1%, 5%, 10%? Who knows? Is there risk in holding these guys on your fantasy team this season?

Fascinating question and one I don’t know we’ll ever know the answer to. All I can say is there will be a ton of pressure on Altuve, Springer, Correa, etc to perform in 2020. Any slip in stats and everyone will rapidly be pointing fingers at them. That’s going to be rough. Not that I feel any remorse for them if that happens. As Kyle stated - these guys were supposedly willing participants in what was happening.

Re: Cheating Scandal Discussion

Reply #4 – January 23, 2020, 06:18:25 AM

Quote from: Scurvy Dogs – on January 22, 2020, 08:34:13 PM

Oh man, when I saw the headline on this thread I got excited. I figured someone had cracked the case on the Boos 2019 championship. But then I realized you were just talking about the Astros and Sox. Boo...

Here’s a solution - and yes I’m going to violate like 372 baseball codes in a two sentences. But why does the catcher even need to call the pitch anyway? Why can’t the pitcher decide on his own what he wants to throw?

There will be no vacating of the 2019 MSB championship.

Wondering, did you ever play catcher at a high level? Man, passed balls *might* go up? Yeah! With every single AB. If the catcher doesn't know what's coming, the first guy to get sent to the ER every single game will be the ump behind the plate with a 99 mph fastball to the melon.

I think the only way to police this moving forward is having a 5th umpire roaming both dugouts. I honestly just thought about that. But it seems like a decent thought.

Re: Cheating Scandal Discussion

Reply #5 – January 23, 2020, 06:27:49 AM

Dan, I hadn't seen that Tigers/White Sox clip. If I did, I'd forgotten about it. Very interesting.

I'm with just about everyone else on this: Kudos if you can steal signs without the use of tech, but that's only gonna be effective with base coaches and base running, because there's just not enough time to relay pitch signs to a hitter unless you're using tech. That's just BS, blatantly unfair, and only used by extremely low character competitors.

I'm not naive enough to think the 'stros are the only ones using tech to cheat, but what burns me up is the whole team knew about it for more than a few seasons.

Re: Cheating Scandal Discussion

Reply #6 – January 23, 2020, 07:31:53 AM

Quote from: Kyle – on January 23, 2020, 06:27:49 AM

I'm not naive enough to think the 'stros are the only ones using tech to cheat, but what burns me up is the whole team knew about it for more than a few seasons.

This is the part that amazes me and why I think it's more prevalent throughout the league. I could go so far as to say that the majority of teams used some sort of system that was outside of the rules. If Morrison is to believed, the Astros were doing this as far back as 2014 and I can't believe it suddenly stopped after 2017. That's at least 3, 4 or 5 years of using some sort of sign stealing that was against the rules. And we know how often players change teams. I can't those guys kept it a secret. Like Fiers when he went to the Tigers in 18. He alerted the pitchers to what was happening. We've probably all seen the Danny Farquhar video. Did he suddenly have a light bulb go off to what the Astros were doing or had he been warned already and new what to look for?

As players would move from team to team, the new teams would have a two decisions to make. First, how do we defend against it? And, second, should we be doing something similar? I'm sure some teams took the high road but I'm also sure others did not. In fact, when I think about it, how was this still an effective system after a few years. You'd think word would have spread to most teams after a few years.

Re: Cheating Scandal Discussion

Reply #7 – January 23, 2020, 07:40:49 AM

I am happy this topic was created as like everyone else been following this very closely because it is a game that we all love.

I was listening to Paul Lo Duca the other day and he made a lot of valid points about this. He stated many times that there should be no reason for teams going to this level to try to steal signs because of how much tape players/teams watch to find tells on pitchers. He said that when he was playing he probably had information on 75-80% of the pitchers in the league and knew what pitch was coming from those pitchers. The part that I personally found interesting and yes it is a different era now but he stated that if something like this would have happened when he was a catcher every time he heard the banging he would throw at the batter not that it would solve anything. It it is just interesting to me that no team caught on and didn't either switch their signs when they heard the banging or didn't take their own actions to try to stop it.

I like the thinking of the pitcher just calling the pitches but as stated that would increase pass balls by probably 60 - 75% just throwing a percentage out there. I am curious if there would be a possibility similar to QBs and their coaches if the pitchers and catchers couldn't have a ear piece with a coach calling the pitches essentially. I never played catcher or pitched so I am not sure if this would be something that could happen or not. Just thinking while typing.

One last thing Altuve and the whole buzzer under his shirt is just ridiculous. When they won and he wouldn't let anyone pour gatorade or rip his shirt off then he had to go to the locker room to put on the champion shirt, his excuse was because his wife doesn't want others to see him without his shirt on and he is shy....get out of here!

Re: Cheating Scandal Discussion

Reply #8 – January 24, 2020, 08:52:15 AM

I am one of those baseball fans that do not follow the sport as much as Kyle so I am not really invited to the conversation

however, "cheating" is in every sport and a very important part of most championships. The evolution of baseball is slow because of "tradition" and that is one reason it isn't terribly exciting to me. In the last decade major changes that should have already happened are happening finally thanks to analytics. The shift, redefinition of starter, and swinging for the fences. I typically say, use whatever you have at your disposal and even computers and technology are fine. The home field advantage in baseball isn't that big and is pretty consistent year after year even with the development of "cheating." Only when safety, financial, or status inequality come into play do I question techniques. All this to say, I really don't care what they do; figure it out and beat it. If the Astros and banging on a trash can then they put themselves at a huge disadvantage when you figure it out. NFL players have to change their signs every week and I can easily come up with sign themes that are distinctive but can be switched between innings if need be. There is no reason why sign stealing should be an advantage to the stealer unless players are being lazy (my ignorant baseball opinion I am sure).

Note: I am happy Kyle mentioned that safety is involved here, something for me to consider.

It isn't a popular opinion but I grew up with 90s NASCAR. For them Monday-Friday was dedicated to use whatever technology they could find to develop an illegal car that would pass tech and then if it failed tech get it into compliance by race day. Jeff Gordon and team were amazing cheaters and now well deserved HoF racers and crew with many rightful championships. They can even come out with documentaries now about how much they cheated.

If you lost you spent Monday-Friday figuring out what they did and copying it or beating it. To me, this is excitement although most here would say turning left for 3 hours is a lot more boring than baseball and I accept that, haha. I like baseball, I LOVE the stats, and going to games is fun.

Re: Cheating Scandal Discussion

Reply #9 – January 24, 2020, 02:41:00 PM

As a baseball and Dodger fan I've definitely been working my way through the 5 Stages of Grief. At this point I'm all talked out.

I'm at the little known 6th stage... laugh like an idiot until you cry!!!

If you've seen any other good ones, please add. It's for the healing.

Re: Cheating Scandal Discussion

Reply #10 – January 24, 2020, 02:44:15 PM

Here's a few more. My favorite is Fast pitch, slow pitch, Altuve, KNEW which.

Re: Cheating Scandal Discussion

Reply #11 – January 24, 2020, 04:20:22 PM

Just one big black eye for the sport of baseball. I’m much like Matt at this point (😳 - that’s a scary thought!); I’m just rolling my eyes and turning the channel every time I hear something else about this whole issue. Of course then I turn to the new station and hear Derek Jeter’s name again and then I just want to rip the TV/radio/Alexa off the wall and throw it in the pool!

First point: MLB wasn’t harsh enough in its penalty. Should have been much harsher with lifetime bans, bigger fines, more lost picks, and vacated titles. In no way do I want titles awarded to the Dodgers, but records in the books and trophies should be stripped of the team(s). The unfortunate part (and the main reason I think larger fines should have been imposed) is that even with vacated titles, the Astros franchise has already reaped the financial gains of winning a title and there’s really no way to reverse that completely. The only real way to further penalize the Astros organization (and the reason I believe there should have been more harsh penalties in terms of draft picks) is to strip them of cheap and cost controlled prospects and make them spend more in free agency to continue their success.

Second point: It’s a double edged sword in terms of the players immunity. On the one hand, MLB wouldn’t have received all the information they did if they hadn’t given the immunity. On the other, it absolutely sucks that the players will essentially get off scott free in terms of penalties. Yes, the Astro players (and soon probably Red Sox players) will carry this ‘scar’ for a while and always have that negative opinion of them, but really . . . do you think Altuve will give much of a care? (Not to mention, think he’ll give back any of that $160+ million contract he “earned”...)

In the end, MLB needs to do whatever they can/have to to clean up the game (once again) from this blatant cheating.

Re: Cheating Scandal Discussion

Reply #12 – January 27, 2020, 12:38:38 PM

Quote from: tigersfancj – on January 24, 2020, 08:52:15 AM

I am one of those baseball fans that do not follow the sport as much as Kyle so I am not really invited to the conversation ...

Haha! You do more than my wife does, that's for sure!

I think my issue is with the batters having tech to cheat when the pitcher has no opportunity to cheat in the same way. He is at an extreme disadvantage that no amount of tech is going to balance out or give a chance to adjust back. I understand that cheating is part of every sport, but baseball is different in that the kind of cheating the Astros were caught doing is totally one-sided in favor of the hitter.

I know some will say that pitchers cheat with foreign substances, but when it's blatant, they get caught, fined, suspended, etc. That's the way it should be. I just think using tech to cheat in a game that doesn't involved tech in order to play it as designed is for losers. Why even play? Where's the joy when you know you only won because you had a HUGE advantage the other team cannot employ?

Re: Cheating Scandal Discussion

Reply #13 – January 27, 2020, 01:39:11 PM

I just want to make sure the unathletic nerds who are employed by the team and make a lot less money get to play their part

Re: Cheating Scandal Discussion

Reply #14 – January 27, 2020, 01:54:44 PM

Quote from: Kyle – on January 27, 2020, 12:38:38 PM

Where's the joy when you know you only won because you had a HUGE advantage the other team cannot employ?

Jose Altuve can name you $160 million points of joy...